Challenging Perfectionism and Stereotypes: Anita Phagura on Leadership (Transcript)
Victoria
Anita, welcome to the show.
Anita
Thank you for having me. I'm really excited for this conversation.
Victoria
I know, me too! So we're going to take it back right to the beginning, early life and career path. Can you share just a little bit about your personal experiences with neurodiversity?
Anita
Yeah, so I think, I suppose this feels more recent, actually, rather than early career path, because although I had some awareness of neurodiversity, I don't think it directly touched my life until the last few years, where I knew a few more people who were openly speaking about their neurodiversity. And it was through that process, actually, of particularly as I became a business owner and seeing lots of my peers as women business owners discovering or speaking about their neurodiversity, particularly ADHD, and just finding a lot of what they were saying resonating. So I started to suspect. The other thing was that as a woman business owner who does coaching, I've been going through a lot of personal development and been speaking about that online. And some of the themes that were coming up and some of the things that I was talking about were attracting other people who were neurodivergent to want to work with me or saying what I was talking about was really relevant, particularly from the lens of speaking about how I hadn't felt like I fitted in at work and workplaces are often made for people to fit in a box. And a lot of people, when I spoke about these topics, resonated.
So that probably could have been a clue. So all of those experiences of the people around me got me to suspect that maybe there was a bit more going on with me too.
Victoria
That's really interesting. And I think it's a common or the story is becoming more common. As you said, people are speaking more openly about their experiences and it's making other people think as well. So if you rewind back to your childhood, was there anything then that stays in your mind about realising that your brain works in a slightly different way?
Anita
Absolutely, and so as I was touching upon, as I was in this personal development and my own coaching, what was really coming up for me was this feeling of not fitting in, particularly in the workplace. And that's what I would talk about. But I realised that feeling wasn't from the workplace just. So I worked in a male dominated industry of construction. I was one of few women in that space, is one of few women of colour. And I approach things perhaps a bit differently to my peers. So I was recognizing that perhaps I didn't fit in that environment, but I realised those feelings really extended a lot longer as well. So I often felt like I was a different one in a space. So I come from a big Punjabi Indian family and I'm an introvert. So it was wonderful in so many ways, but there was always a lot going on. And I often felt different in those spaces, often felt different at school. I was very academic. I was very get my head down, do the work, do it well. I realise now that I was a bit of a perfectionist, but I didn't perhaps realise at the time.
But I was often seen as a person by my friends or peers, as somebody who just coasts by and get away with doing minimal work, but has the academic success. And that wasn't necessarily the case, but it did meean that I was the type of person who left it on the last minute and was able to retain certain bits of information. And it wasn't that I didn't care, I actually really cared about school work, but it also meant that I didn't have the headspace for other things. I was always really messy and disorganised. And so if somebody had told me I was a perfectionist, I was like, no way could I be a perfectionist. My life is chaos from an early age, my bedroom was always a mess. And there were some things that I would also object against or rally against, even though I'd often felt like I needed to be a certain way to fit in and fit the mould, be the good Indian girl from my parents, meet their expectations. But there are certain things that my values were, I will still speak up against this if it didn't feel right, because one of my biggest values is fairness.
And I can now see that again as a trait that many people neurodivergent have. And so, again, that was also part of why I felt different in my family. I will see things that are, I'd say, not fair being the only girl in my household, for instance, apart from my mom. But I was like, you're treating the boys differently than me. So I would always rebel against some of those stereotypes or some of those expectations. I think there were definitely clues in there, but I also appreciate how it definitely would have been missed because I didn't fit that expectation of what neurodivergence looks like in many ways.
Victoria
Interesting. Thank you for sharing that backstory as well. And if we fast forward a little bit now to starting your business, what was the catalyst behind that?
Anita
Yeah, absolutely. So the seed had been sown when I took my redundancy from work that it was a possibility that starting my own business was even a thing that I could do and where my passions and interest really lay, which was with gender equity at the time in particular. So the seed had been sown when I took my redundancy because I had access for the first time, I think, to personal development and workshops and career development in that sense through my redundancy package. So the seed got sown. But the catalyst was when I was in a particularly toxic role as a contractor in probably maybe nine months to a year after the seed had been sown, that it was a possibility. But the role was particularly toxic. I'd seen a lot of the things that I'm really passionate about, but around gender equity, but also race equity, playing out in real time. And I realised that I was also suffering in this environment. And I realised that I couldn't change it from within and trying to change it from within as one person or a few people was just going to break me. And actually the actual catalyst for me leaving that role and being like, I am going to do this thing that I want to do and make change from the outside, was that I was in a part time role, I was in a job share.
And the the bosses in the organization, they started treating us as if we were two people rather than one. Sorry, they started treating us as two people doing two full-time roles rather than two people do one full-time role. And so the workload kept getting more and more and I was trying to reduce my hours. I was actually trying to do less rather than more. I had my small child at home and I was trying to make that work. And therefore, when I needed to be out of the office, I was. But then that meant I was on one particular day, I was working at 2:00 in the morning doing something that I realised nobody would value. I was like, here I am, giving it my all because I still want to show up and do a good job. But actually, nobody's going to care that I've done this piece of work and that I did it at 2:00 in the morning to try and meet the expectations of what needed to be done. And that was the catalyst for me to be like, if I have to leave my child to go to work, let me do something that I feel is that I can make a difference, that is valuable, that I can contribute in a way that I want to contribute.
Victoria
And what year did you set up your business?
Anita
So this would have been 2018, 2019, I think. So 2018 I started my business, but then I was doing the project management contracting. And this role would have been part of that. And then 2019, well, the business moved into more of what I do now.
Victoria
Ok, because you mentioned about values aligning and having more impact. And you and I, I feel like I've known you for a little bit longer because we've gone through the same coaching training. And I've really got to know you particularly over the last 12 months. But speaking up for what you believe in and equity and fairness just come through really strongly with everything you do, both offline and online. And I really admire that about you. And also while we were doing some research around the podcast questions, I saw that you were a volunteer with the Samaritans for a period as well. Can you tell me and the listeners a little bit more about that?
Anita
Yeah, absolutely. So I actually chose to become a volunteer at a point where I was realizing that work was becoming all consuming and that my ambitions weren't necessarily going to pay off in the way that I wanted them to. So I realised I needed to do things differently. So I chose to work flexibly and got that approved. That meant I was doing five days in four days and I already worked long hours, so I was like, that makes more sense for me. And now I know of my neurodivergent brain, it makes more sense. I'm more of an evening person, so I stay late. And that could be when I do my focus work. So it makes sense in hindsight. But the other way of working was leading to burnout. And so I realised I needed to do something to have a life outside of work beyond just, I don't know, numbing myself or just watching Netflix or just catching up with friends, like I wanted something more. I don't particularly have any hobbies or anything like that. And I felt a call to want to help people in some way, particularly. There are lots of people I feel like I couldn't help.
So I suppose it was this feeling of, in some sense, a bit of helplessness, but wanting to channel that in being able to help people who need it. And so I chose to become a Samaritans volunteer. And I look back at the time so fondly. Actually, I think that was the thing that got me down, one of the things that led me to the path that I now do in the sense of coaching. So there I learnt the skills of how to listen effectively, really lean into not non-judgment, because absolutely anyone could be phoning, even if they have absolutely different values to or have committed crimes that just really, again, go up against your sense of morality or justice or values. But all of those people are going through a time of challenge or crisis and they are human. No matter what they come to you with, that is valid. I look at it so fondly because I made these amazing connections with other volunteers. Again, from all different walks of life in many ways, but had that common thread of wanting to support people and being able to lean into being not judgmental, being active listeners, because the people that couldn't do that, they ultimately would leave or they wouldn't get through the training.
They would realise it wasn't right for them. And then also just the conversations I would have with people. And again, it was mostly listening. It was mostly asking questions. But you are exposed to so many people from different walks of life, going through so many different things. And you really see this cross-section of society and people being able to share their vulnerabilities. And you might meet these people in the street. We might be them ourselves, but we will often wear this mask and not show that side of ourselves for lots of reasons. And then on this call, it was just all open. Well, the people that were able to be open would just share it all. And sometimes that could be at the absolute lowest point that they were at. I think there is a bit of a misconception that Samaritans is only there for people who have suicidal thoughts. And that's not necessarily the case. It's actually really open to anyone going through a difficult time. I also saw how broken a lot of our systems are that are meant to support people. And it was often volunteer organizations like the Samaritans, who would pick up some of that slack. But again, there's only so much that they could do as well. So you also saw the limitations. But it was an incredible experience. And it doesn't feel right to say that it was joyful or anything like that, but it was very enriching. And it was when I became a mom, really, that I just couldn't make the time work anymore so it was more that was the thing that didn't allow me to carry on at the time.
Victoria
I imagine this ties in really nicely with your values of equity, fairness, justice and all of that, and also having that impact, because you don't know how much of a difference that one phone call or that one question, we have it in coaching don't we, where clients will come back to us and go, yeah, so that one question, I've been reflecting on it. You're like, oh, my gosh, which question was that? And it might be the slightest thing at the time, but it's made this big difference and it's opened up their world to a possibility of different options. So there's this butterfly effect. I used to do volunteering for The Silver Line, and they're a charity who support the elderly suffering from loneliness. So I started getting involved with them. This was before I started coaching, but in hindsight, I realised that it draws on a lot of the listening skills and questioning skills from coaching. I started it because I'd watched the morning news and this elderly guy had been conned out of all of his life savings. And they were questioning him about, well, why did you give all your money to a stranger? And he was like, this was the only person I'd spoken to in weeks and he seems genuinely interested in me. So I invited him in. And I just thought, gosh, if it was my parents or anybody elderly who I know, even though I don't know, it's just absolutely heartbreaking.
Victoria
And I want to make some difference however small. So I was matched with this lady and we must have spoken weekly, almost consistently for a good, I want to say like four years or something until she died. And like you, I can't say that I found joy in the fact that she was having to call a helpline in order to be matched with a complete stranger. But like you, I found the conversation very enriching. And she had this love of the military and planes. And this is a world that I haven't been hasn't been in my world before. So it was interesting to have these conversations with her and again, to feel good that I was doing some good in her life as well.
Anita
I think one of the challenges, actually, with the Samaritans is that you wouldn't know the outcome of the conversation. You wouldn't necessarily speak to that person again. So it would be quite rare that you would and even if you would, they wouldn't necessarily know you were the same person. So because they're calling the Samaritans, they're not calling one person within the Samaritans. And so actually, that was something that you'd have would be something actually you need to process with your volunteers of not knowing what happened. And you could just hold on to the hope that where it needed to it made the or whatever the difference is they needed to. But just those conversations or you're part of a support network, hopefully.
Victoria
Yeah, I'm sure you were. Absolutely. So fast forward again then to your business, you're in your business. How is that and the way you're running it right now supporting the way your brain works?
Anita
So I'm definitely still trying to find the right balance with that. But I do see that part of why I ended up working for myself and was really drawn to that, when I found out it was even an option, was because particularly with having my child, I couldn't see how I could get the flexibility I wanted in the traditional workplace. But now I can also see that with the overlay of neurodiversity or how it showed up for me. So I was terrible in the mornings. I even worked a flexible role. But they were like, you do need to be in by 9:30, and I was never there by 9:30. And I was just terrible in the mornings. I find it really hard to leave the house. That's my downtime. I'm not a morning person, but then I will work until really late. So having my own business has allowed me to lean into those patterns a bit more than I could in the traditional workplace, not quite as fully as I might want to, because I still have a small child who is the opposing pattern to how I would ideally like to work. He gets up early and then gets picked up from school at 3:00 something.
Anita
But where I can actually, my husband takes the responsibility of pick ups, when we can make that work, because I realised that really cut me off at my focus time, whereas the morning I would do much less focus work. So having to leave at 2:30 really means I can't have those days that I can do that focus work. So being able to be flexible in how I work, being able to lean into the areas of interest and the rabbit holes of things I find fascinating and being able to either then hold on to them for like they're just there at the back of my mind for something in the future, percolating, or they can turn into parts of blogs or parts of things I can share with people in training or or in other ways, or they can be offers that I can create. I often approach how I deliver my training or my coaching in, perhaps not coaching, because that's more about for me, it's more about showing up for that one individual person as they need to. But when I'm creating offers or training, I do think about how I can lean into being able to meet different people's styles, but also for me, how I can make it interesting, because variety is essential.
Anita
And then naturally, as somebody as ADHD, I think it has to be interesting in different ways. So that means I do lean into how I can do things in this very way. And that means the tools and the learning that I do leans into that as well. So one of the things I absolutely loved about starting my own business, which works for me, the most revolutionary thing is I can direct and choose my own training and learning. I don't need to justify it to anyone. Those things that I think will benefit my work, but also that I think will be fun and interesting, I can then do those things. I've had to learn to manage that, that I'm not just picking every single thing that interests me, because I have FOMO otherwise, and I have to be manageable. But what that's meant is that I've been able to do... I did it twice actually in different forms. But one of the things I chose to spend my training and learning budget on was visual thinking and being able to bring that into my coaching and training. And that is using drawings, as simple as that.
Anita
And I'm naturally a very wordy person. So, again, it was just being able to draw on a different skill. But again, that's been great for me to be able to reach different people and also to get me to think in a different way. So I'm still finding the ways that I can work with my neurodivergence in some sense, because I still run into some real challenges around how I manage my time in particular. But having the freedom has also allowed me to explore so many things that I wouldn't have otherwise if I was working for somebody else. So it's allowed a lot more freedom in that respect.
Victoria
And it sounds like you're really leaning into your energy levels when your peak productivity is as well. And creating a business that supports that with your husband's support as well, if he can collect your child from school as well when you're in your flow and everything. You mentioned disorganisation and energy levels. Are there any apps, software, systems that you use just to support your way of working and thinking?
Anita
I'm still finding my way with that, so I think some things are definitely helpful, like Trello to just be able to... Because I love Post-it. I don't have loads of physical Post-it around me at the moment, but there are times when I just have physical Post-it everywhere. But Trello is that in a virtual sense. I absolutely love Miro for that as well because it is actual Post-it notes. But you can also put things in some semblance or structure. So you can have a timeline or you can have a grid that helps you organise things. And I'll bring that to meetings sometimes, but also just use it to plan my projects or plan something. I will use that just for me or to evaluate and look back and look forward. But I think having a process and have it has been really important for me and having some structure, because I think my natural sense, I've got this conflict of I don't like structure. I don't want process. I feel like it will strain me in, but not having it. I'm way too unstructured and too free. So having the things that can help me set the process.
So that has been working through with particular coaches and being able to find the thing that gives me the process that I can then follow. So that has been instrumental in changing the way I work. And even just WhatsApp, WhatsApping myself, things that I read that are interesting. That's what I started doing. I now then need to put that in some sense of structure. But just otherwise I'm scrolling and then will never remember the things I've come across. I'll be like, oh, there was this really interesting article the other day or this really interesting post and never be able to find it again. So I'm finding it, but just finding those tools that can help me just store what I'm thinking about that time or help me unlock some of that has been helpful.
Victoria
Yes. In some of the coaching that I do as well, I think sometimes clients think that there might be just like one tool or one strategy that I could give them that's going to unlock everything. I'm really careful with the way I word it because it's more about creating this mental toolkit of various strategies that you can, almost like a pick a mix of options that they can draw upon at any one time, because depending on your energy, your mood, what's going on in your life, one thing might not work today, but it might work a different day. So it's better to have, I think, a suite of options that you could choose from, because there isn't one magic thing for any one person, because everybody is so different. I was speaking to somebody yesterday, they have ADHD. And she was talking about how she really needs noise or some background noise all of the time, whether it's listening to a podcast or the radio on or the TV on or something. Whereas the previous week I was speaking with somebody with ADHD and they needed complete silence. So there isn't this one size fits all and it is very experimental about what what my work for your brain, your preferences, your mood, your energy levels and all of that as well.
If I said you can only choose one piece of software to use for the rest of your business career, what would that be?
Anita
If I could only choose one piece of software, I think it would just have to be a Google document. If you took that away from me, I'm not sure what I could do. But with the other stuff, like you say, I use them, I lean into them for a period of time and they suit me, but they aren't necessarily things I stuck with consistently. The thing that I would really struggle without now, though, is like online banking in the sense that of Monzo and it being on my phone and I can set up Pots. I think that is the thing, actually, that I would if you took that away from me, I'd cry. I would be like, no, don't make me go back.
Victoria
And online banking, particularly those types of apps, because I've got a Monzo account and a Starling account as well. Just the flexibility there is to move things in and out or you can even, I don't know if Monzo is the same, but with Starling, even if you've got a separate pot, you can set up certain payments from that pot as well, which just takes a layer of thinking out of the equation. And if we're thinking about the mental load of life and all of the responsibilities that we have to do with the everyday running of a life and a business, the less we have to do and the more we can automate in a way that makes sense, the better, right?
Anita
Yeah, I think so. I think exactly that those things that automate for us and take away that lay of thinking, they are the things that are magic, that we don't even realise that we're using. It's not a chore to use it.
Victoria
Yes, absolutely. Ok, last couple of questions. You are a big believer in "embracing your misfit". So can you tell me and the listeners exactly what that means and why that matters to you so much?
Anita
Yeah, absolutely. So I touched on through this that I've often felt like I was somebody who's different in a space. I often felt like I didn't fit in or felt that I needed to be a certain way to fit in. And so I realised that our environments are often things that that contribute to that as well. And I realised I wasn't alone in this that so many of us spend our energy trying to fit in or feeling like you don't fit in because we're different in some way. And so therefore, embracing your misfit, embracing my misfit to me, to me, means that we shed those the sides of what I expects, and we embrace those things that make us different. And that is beautiful and remarkable in itself. And we fix the environment or we cater the environment to suit our mis-fix house.
Victoria
Yeah, I love that. I love that. And actually thinking back to what you said earlier, you said something about FOMO. Do you still do you still experience FOMO now or are you moving towards JOMO, Joy of Missing Out?
Anita
I'm in JOMO, when I don't have to leave the house. It's wonderful. Although I have started to like to go to some more in person things, but slow and steady. I still do have some FOMO, but there's so much I see beyond now, if it's not the right time for me, even if there is this amazing offer that would be cheaper or whatever, but it's not the right time. So if I really need it, I'll pay more for it later. And that's OK. I think I have sometimes still the FOMO for physical events, you see the pictures or you see the lineup and you're like, oh, that looks amazing. I wish I'd been part of that. But again, I also recognise that that is a big ask to get there and interact with that many people. So, again, I'm all right with missing out as long as I'm picking and choosing the ones that I do make the effort for.
Victoria
And I think you're really good at giving that advice to other people as well, because we were having a chat a few weeks ago about you were doing a course. I was like, oh, my God, that course looks amazing. Send me all the details I want to sign up. And then when we spoke about it, I was like, do you know what? I don't know if this is what I should be spending my time, energy and money on right now. And you were like, totally fine. It's still going to be here, as and when you're ready to pick it up. You know, it's all cool. And having that sense check from you was actually quite soothing, because I didn't feel like FOMO so much and it was more like, OK, no, now isn't the right time. Absolutely no reason why I can't revisit it in the future.
So last question for you, you say that "the fierceness I'm known for is also gentle and compassionate". So for any listeners out there wondering if they're outgoing and bold enough to be effective leaders, particularly as you've spoken about your own introversion as well, what advice can you give?
Anita
Yeah, absolutely. So I don't think we need one style of leadership or any cookie cutter leadership. So if we think about embracing our misfit and creating the environment for others as well, the leaders don't have to be loud. They don't have to be outgoing. They don't have to be bold necessarily. And I think also the thing about being bold is that we might have perceptions of what being bold means in society or in the workplace. That actually being bold can mean very different things to us as individuals and also us at different times in our life. So it's actually one way of being fearful that we're the most bold, because if we're doing something despite the fear, then that is bold in itself. And there are absolutely values and strengths that we all have and that we can tune into more to create the environments that work for us and work for others who don't necessarily fit the moulds as well. And that doesn't have to be one style. So find what you're amazing at, develop and lean into those areas and some other areas that would benefit the style of leader you want to be.
Victoria
Yeah, fantastic, Anita. Thank you so, so much for being so generous with your time and your knowledge today. It's been lovely talking to you and thank you for coming on the show.
Anita
Thank you so much.