Caro Syson on Neurodivergence and Simplifying Business with Pocket PA (Transcript)
Victoria
Caro, welcome to the show.
Caro
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here, Victoria.
Victoria
I'm really looking forward to our conversation, particularly your backstory, the reason behind starting your business, and all of that good stuff. But to get us started, I have a question about your early life and career path, and that is, can you share a little bit about your personal experience with neurodiversity and how having an official diagnosis maybe changed your approach?
Caro
I didn't get my diagnosis until the last couple of years, really. It was never on my radar to think that I should be exploring that avenue. And so I have lived for over five decades not having known that I had anything that was out of the ordinary. I had grown used to living with my odd ways, my quirkiness, thinking a different way, and it had never occurred to me. So I guess any experience of neurodiversity, of the ADHD, of autism would all have been aligned around it being a male-dominated characteristic, not something that related to women. So that's why it would never have occurred to me that that could be something for me. I suppose at school it would have always been those naughty boys that were fidgeting and that needed to be sent out of the class because they just couldn't stop moving and interrupting things, so they were needed better discipline, but they actually had ADHD, but we didn't really talk about it. And as far as autism and Asperger's, I have a stereotype of the Rain Man and that sort of thing, and knowing that he could count matches in a nanosecond, which is a skill that I've never had, and yet we share a similar diagnosis.
Caro
So it was a very extreme end of the spectrum. And because I don't have a learning disability with it, I suppose it's not been flagged up as a very evident thing that people have explored before. So yes, I don't have any backstory to say that it was diagnosed early or it was flagged up early. In fact, it was totally missed, which has meant that for five decades I have become incredibly adept at masking and camouflage and ensuring that I blend in at all times. And I've become a patchwork quilt of everybody that I've come across in my life because I've taken a small part of things that I thought they're doing well and mimicked it myself. So I don't really... Sometimes I look at myself and I think, Who is the real me? Who is the real Caro Syson? Because identifying myself is such a smorgasbord of so many people that I have come across in life that I have thought have done something that I've admired or aspired to and thought, Oh, my gosh, I want to be a bit more like that person. And because I haven't had a concrete sense of identity and a sense of self, because I've not had much confidence in my own abilities, I suppose I've stolen other people's traits and things to some extent to feel like I'm fitting in and blending in and not standing out to shine any attention on myself.
Victoria
You used the word odd in those initial sentences. What was the impact on feeling like that when you were growing up or early in your career?
Caro
I suppose that oddness felt around, I would stay up to all hours exploring ideas to the Nth degree on things. I would hyper focus on things until 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, random things that other people would be like, what on earth are you looking at that for? I couldn't let things go. If something piqued my interest, I would go narrow and deep into exploring it and finding out everything there was to know about it. I have an amazing memory, so I would remember very random facts. I would be having car conversations with people and be coming very left field and people were like, what on earth are you thinking about that for? That's an odd thing to say. And my brain would be on another track and it could be on three or four tracks at the same time. I would be having different conversations in my head that obviously weren't being spoken out loud. I would be trying to navigate the two things, my real conversation in real time with the person that I was talking to, and yet my brain was somewhere else. And, intermittently, it would be like, what do you think about such and such?
Caro
And they would say, Well, we're not even talking about that. So there was this often disconnect, I suppose, between what is going on in my brain and my head at 100 miles an hour and the way that everybody around me is running their life in quite a laidback, organised fashion or something that makes sense to them, but seems completely on go slow. And why is everyone taking so long to speak? And I can't find that same energy when I'm in company with somebody that speaks very slowly and considered, and they're choosing their words. Oh, my goodness, that drives me insane because I've got this very intense, fast speed and that's how my brain is operating. So it's very painful to have to listen so slowly and to wait for them to tell me what they're thinking. That drives me nuts.
Victoria
Oh, no. I apologise now then if my questions are quite slow. Do you know what? I'm quite paranoid about the speed in which I talk, because when I am consuming audio information, whether that be a podcast, an audio book, or training material, I listen to it on two times speed or even three times speed, because that's how quickly my brain can process information. But what happens is I have to listen to these podcasts back as I'm recording them, and I listen to it in normal speed and think, oh, my gosh, you are so slow at talking, like I'm used to hearing information at speed. To the point where sometimes if I listen to a podcast intro music at normal speed, I don't even recognise it because normally it's going so fast. You mentioned about your brain almost having these different tracks, you being at 100 miles an hour. How has that helped you in business or in your career?
Caro
I think it's helped and hindered, because it can frustrate people working with you when you need to be more present, but you're actually four or five steps ahead. I think it's really helped me in so many things because I have been able to visualise and imagine things, certainly for my software journey. I've been able to see the big picture and also the minute detail of exactly what's needed. And it's been an incredibly cathartic process, actually seeing my whole very detailed, you know, vision coming to life and actually having it out there as a software platform. But it was so frustrating, waiting for it to take so long to be built. It was just like what on earth? It had to all be coded and it all had to be linked in and all the complexities to make it a really solid foundation needed to be taken. But because I already envisaged the final product and I'd been communicating it in so much detail and been living with it for so long, I just wanted everybody to do it now and it was a really slow process. So I'm very impatient. I can imagine I'm quite difficult to work with because of that speed, and I perhaps miss out explaining steps to those who are supporting around me because it seems so obvious to me, but it isn't obvious to perhaps neurotypical people that need a little bit more meat on the bones and a bit more flesh to follow along those steps.
Caro
But that's probably the disconnect, again, between how my brain works and how people operate in real life.
Victoria
You mentioned the tech company. Are you talking about Pocket PA?
Caro
Yes. That was my tech project that I've been doing the last seven years, but I've had a very squiggly journey up to here. This is, I think, again, part of my ASD. I've had numerous side hustles and some quite big milestone markers of things which I have bedded down and have been the bedrock of my careers. But I believe in only doing something for as long as you're enjoying it, whereas a lot of people start off and, well, I don't think anymore we have a career for life which people follow for 40 years anymore, which used to be that wouldn't have suited me at all being in another generation. But I'm very much a move on type person and do something for as long as I'm enjoying it. I already have a list of four to five other things that I'm still planning to do after Pocket PA, which I'm super excited about. My journey is not done and I can't imagine ever a time of retirement because that wouldn't suit how I like to live my life. I'm always learning, always finding out new things, and that's what keeps me exhilarated and engaged with life.
Victoria
I know that you've got a really interesting backstory around Pocket PA, how it came about, and how it's helping people. Could you share a little bit about that with me and the listeners?
Caro
Sure. I was merrily doing my other business. I have a property company, investment. I'm a landlord also, which I've been doing for 20 years. But seven years ago, my oldest daughter came home at the age of 19, not having gone to university, but she came home to tell me, Mum, I want to work for myself. And those seven words completely changed my whole direction because I was so excited that she felt empowered enough and brave enough to step into this space of working for herself, believing in herself, daring to be brave enough to try to give it a go. But my biggest concern was knowing that she has dyscalculia, which is the number version of dyslexia, where she finds numbers, spreadsheets, numeracy, those sorts of things, maths is very challenging. I was concerned about how she was going to manage the numbers, the day to day admin. Obviously, she had no business background, which, why would she? She was 19. No one had taught her that at school, for sure. So I just really decided at that point to do some research to find something that she could use. And after a lot of due diligence finding 50 or 60 different apps all doing something that she needed, I just found it crazy that there wasn't something all in one place in colour, in a simple, no jargon-free way that she could really use that was practical day to day.
Caro
So I just thought, well, how hard can it be I'm going to make that for her. And again, this is my naivety, my no limitations. And I just thought, Oh, I'll make that for her. Why not? I wasn't expecting it to be done by tea time, but I didn't see any barriers to entry. It didn't occur to me for one second that, gosh, that's a huge thing, making a software platform for your own daughter, combining all of the different software tools that you've seen because they were all in isolation, like you get accountancy software packages, you get Calendly and booking softwares, you have receipt banks, you have Zoho and CRM systems. And when I kept taking it to these software houses, I was like, oh, I want to combine this, this, this, this. And they were like, There's a reason why they're all done separately because each one is so huge. So to combine a couple of them or three of them would be a huge task. There's a lot of interactivity. And to want to have your vision of combining four in a really simplistic way, but to make everything clickable and show up at the front end with all these data tables in the back, that is a huge task.
Caro
Do you realize the enormity of what you're doing? And again, my naivety is like, oh, yes, it's but there's no reason why I can't do it. I've had four children. I'm invincible. I will be able to manage this. I was very much cutting to the chase. Let's just crack on. I wasn't prepared to listen to any excuses or see any barriers or blocks. I think if I look back now at my seven years and had I seen all the turbulent ups and downs and things that I've encountered, would I still start that journey? Probably not. However, thank goodness I didn't, because I had no limiting beliefs or no barriers to stop me getting going. And now I look back and think, oh, my goodness, I'm the proudest person. My daughter's business is blossoming. I have, you know it's way more than an MVP. I have lots of people using it to say that they would cry if it wasn't here anymore. So I know I have loyal customers, and it's definitely hit the sweet spot. And because we deliver it all in colour, it's very simplistic, there's no jargon. My son uses it, he has dyslexia, my daughter has, as I say, dyscalculia, and lots of other neurodiverse people and neuroinclusive typical people, but I know that it has a huge value to be able to join up those dots in a way that a lot of the traditional softwares are overwhelming and not giving that user experience to help them run their own business.
Caro
And so I feel very proud of what we've achieved. It has taken a long time. I sometimes look back and think, Oh, couldn't I have fast forwarded that? But I am where I am and I'm super excited that we have delivered something which I feel very proud of and I know is helping people in their business and their livelihood. And I don't think I would have had that journey and that experience if I hadn't been like I am with my ASD and not seen any barriers to entry, not had such a curious mind and a brain, not been able to think laterally and outside the box and envisage so far ahead everything that was needed to bring something like this to fruition.
Victoria
Yeah, and it goes back to what you said earlier about having that big picture vision and knowing what you ultimately want to achieve, but also breaking that down into the granularity and all of the nitty gritty that needs to be done in order to move that product through to completion as well. So who would be your target market for the app?
Caro
So anyone that works by themselves, for themselves, if they're a freelancer or in service based industry, as long as they don't have any staff, PAYE people, as long as they're under the VAT threshold, because we keep everything super simple. So in the UK, under £85,000, working by yourself, for yourself, no staff, and probably ideally service-based, where you have appointments in your diary, you might be collecting deposits, you might need an online booking system, you may be mobile driving to them, need to collect business mileage, tracking. We do all of that stuff. Reminder messages out to your clients, thank you messages to your clients, and you want to see everything in colour and you need to track your income and your expenses. So you normally hate doing your accounts, but you have to do them anyway. You don't like spreadsheets. That's a very common theme of my user group. And with Pocket PA, you don't need to use spreadsheets. You literally become a data enterer. I say to people when they tell me, Oh, I'm not tech-orientated, I don't like tech. I say, Can you send a text message? And they're like, Oh, yeah, I can get a text message out.
Caro
I say, that's pretty much your entry requirement. As long as you're able to text a message, you'll be qualified to be able to input information into Pocket PA. I presume you're not colour-blind, so you'll be able to see the different coloured dial to be able to give that information back, because you do not need to be a numbers whizz. When you are a business owner, you do need to get to grips with your numbers. There's no getting around that. But I think a lot of people rely on their bank statement coming in with pages of numbers and they just look at the bottom line and they believe that that one snapshot in time will give them the barometer on how their business is doing. And unfortunately, I know from my own experience of 30 years in business and now watching my daughter's business unfold, you can't be that disengaged with your numbers. You need to be familiar and on top of that information on a day to day basis. That's the power and everyone is capable of having that. It's just they haven't found tools that have engaged them and delivered information in a way that they can process and understand.
Caro
So it's a common theme across the board. I don't think it is just neurodiverse people, but people feel overwhelmed by numbers quite often. 4 million people have dyscalculia in the UK, it's estimated. And I think women in particular, we give away our power around money potentially, and we defer to a partner or a dad or a brother or the accountant or somebody else to higher up the chain that helps us with that stuff. And it's absolutely... There's no shame in getting some help in or whatever, but I want to deliver your financial information to you, whether you're a man or a woman, in a way that you can understand and feel empowered that you're in charge of your business because you definitely can do it. There's no reason that any of us can't understand the simple nuts and bolts of the income and the expenses. It just hasn't been that you've used a tool, perhaps, that's delivered it in a way that you've understood it.
Victoria
Yeah, I agree completely. And I think as well, people don't go into business because they really want to do their bookkeeping and their accounting. They go into business because they love whatever it is that forms the basis of their actual role in the day-to-day doing. And it's all of that behind-the-scenes stuff, like you mentioned, the calendar booking, the mileage. I'm terrible at remembering to track my mileage. And all of that other stuff.
Caro
Those things don't light you up, do they? Those are not the things that you start a business, because nobody starts a new business to do more business admin, said ever. And these are non income producing tasks that you have to do. I'm saying that in air quotes because it's tedious, it's boring for a lot of people. But, sadly or not, these things light me up, creating a system and a process to simplify those things for other people. Because if you have to do them, you want to do them in the fastest possible time, in the simplest possible way, and get out of that space as quick as possible, and for you to feel, oh, that's done. That's done. I always say the magic is in the mundane. It's the small and little things that you do each day. You don't need to be taking big gestures and making giant leaps and steps in your business because it's about what those little small, consistent things that you do on a regular basis, which are so much more important. So spending 2-3 minutes per day just making sure that your financials are all up to date will save you 2-3 weeks at the end when it's tax time and it's like, what did I spend that 33 pounds on back on the fourth of September?
Caro
Oh, what was that? And you aren't going to remember. Why would you? Because your brain is filled up with so many more other important things. But just doing a little rain check each and every day is within all of our scope. And we should be creating these small disciplines of good habits that support us. And over time, they build up into really momentous supporting things in our business. Whereas if you don't spend that time as time goes on, it becomes more of a backlog and more of a black hole that, unfortunately, at some point you have to climb out of. So it's often after the first year of accounts and you realise what a monumental job it's been that you think, oh, I've got to find a system next year.
Victoria
I'm not going through that ever again.
Caro
But get that going right from the beginning. I think small business owners, particularly if they're transitioning from a hobby into a business, it's like, oh, I'm not quite big enough yet. I'll set that up when I'm a bit bigger, when I've got a bit more money. But you need to put out to the universe. You can handle small amounts of money. So guess what? You're prepared to be able to handle big amounts of money, and you're sending that message to yourself that you are worth investing in, that you are worth taking this seriously and that you've got this business perhaps before you're ready to actually officially feel that you're trumpeting it out there. But you are starting to treat your business as a business from day one. And you mean business, and you're going to start behaving like a businesswoman or a businessman right from the get-go. And that sending that message out to the universe and to yourself is what enables you to have those solid foundations of which to build on and to give your business a much bigger chance of success.
Victoria
I liked your... what did you say? Like two to four, 2-3 minutes a day can save you that time in weeks at the end. And just to backtrack slightly, you've mentioned the word colour quite a few times and that the app is colourful. What makes that important within the app?
Caro
Well, business admin, as I say, that doesn't usually light a lot of people up, and I get that. And so when people open Pocket PA, I want it to feel engaging right from the minute that they open it, that they feel connected to it. I try to do that through colour, and I haven't had anyone so far that's ever opened the platform and not said, oh, wow! That looks great, because I think that they are conditioned and sensitised to opening some boring softwares that are just either a blank screen or adjust in the pale blue and white contrast because it all looks smart and it's usually been designed by men in suits or pale males and certain age groups or whatever it is, I don't know. But my brain has always fired on lots of cylinders. I'm naturally a colourful person, and I think that that exudes into the software that we've built. And so when people open Pocket PA and they see that there's colour and engagement and stuff, we have a coloured dial for your profit. I just say make the red as small as possible, which are your expenses, the green as big as possible.
Caro
And then you'll be able to see at a glance, without even needing to read any numbers, what the overall health of your business is. And if it's half red, half green, then you know straight away then you're spending as much as you're earning and so there'll be nothing left for you. You're at a breakeven point. God forbid if you've got that red part of the dial bigger than the green, you know that you've got an expensive hobby going on and you need to know that before the accountant tells you at the end of the year. So by connecting things to colour and taking it away from just needing to read the numbers and being able to actually get involved in the weeds, you're able to see at a headline level straight away the financial health of your business with a 360 view. And then we colour code all of the accountancy categories as well. So that's important. So if you're quickly looking for something in travel, you can scroll down and you're looking for the green one because you start to do this connection and it means that you don't have to be worrying so much about the letters.
Caro
And so that really helps people that have dyslexia to be able to connect with the colour. In addition to that, your diary, which we look at every day, if you've got a paper diary and you're writing in it in your blue or your black biro and stuff and you're flipping through the pages, you can't tell at a glance whether you've got a predominance of a certain type of service that you're delivering. When you look on the Pocket PA calendar, you'll see all of your appointments are grouped in different colours. So you could set up... I have a lady in beauty and she puts all of her massages in, in green. She feels that's a soothing colour and she does all her lash or eyebrow treatments and things in a purple. Now, if she opens her calendar at the beginning of the week to get an overview of what's going on, if she sees a propensity of green appointments, she knows that she needs to have her Ready Brek in the morning, an extra Weetabix, whatever it is, because that's going to be a physical week. And in addition, if she sees a lot of pink appointments in there, she knows that that's going to be a lot of quite intense work for her eyes.
Caro
She might need to book a few extra breaks or just be mindful of how many she does back to back. So using colour to deliver information back to your senses to sense check where you're at, it's a connecting thing. And I think we should be using more colour to join up the dots in our business, whether it's with the numbers or the letters or whatever it is, because as I say, apart from if you're colour-blind, we can all use it to our advantage. And I think particularly neurodiverse people have a connection with colour that really helps to fire things on all cylinders and make things easier, and that's what it's all about.
Victoria
Yeah, so creating that visual aspect, I really like that. Actually, one of the things I talk to quite often with clients is with emails, because your inbox can all look really samey, samey. So by just adding an emoji to the front of a subject line or something like that, you're creating that visual element. And then it doesn't really matter. You might be looking by colour or you might be looking for the triangle or the square or the circle or something else just so that everything isn't quite samey, samey. I also think I probably have one of the accounting systems that's in various shades of blue. So I have that visual in my mind as you were talking about it.
Caro
Nothing wrong with blue. We all like blue, but just in measured amounts.
Victoria
Yeah, and I think a lot of people go with blue, don't they? Because it's seen as trustworthy and professional in air quotes. So people, there's a lot of blue going on.
Victoria
I've got three more questions for you. Your own podcast is called, Earn More, Stress Less, and obviously that's the dream for absolutely all of us business owners. What do you think is the secret to achieving that?
Caro
I think the secret to earning more and stressing less is to take things more in our stride, I think, to being prepared to just look for alternative ways because things don't have to be hard. I think it's important to learn from others. I think learning unlocks so many keys. So in order for us to earn more with less stress, we need to find hacks and shortcuts and learn from what other people are doing. I mean, that's why when we take on a professional or an expert in something, we're basically buying their experience and all of the bad experiences that they've learned to get to this point so that we can learn by that experience to be able to not have to have those pain points and springboard off their success and their hacks by paying for that experience. So I think, earn more, stress less, we've got a multitude of different business owners and people working with small businesses that have all learned numerous lessons over the years. And so I bring guests on where they can share some of their learnings and experiences because there's always a gem to pick up from everyone, usually multiple gems, because everybody has amazing stories to tell and there's some takeaway that we can get from somebody else's business journey and experience.
Caro
I think having a community as well of small business owners where we are able to understand the different challenges. You and I have had similar challenges just lately just because of the journey as to where we are in our business journey, both being here for seven years. And with that comes different challenges and different high points, different low points. And when you start to relate to people in that way and you know that they just get you and they understand, that's the power of a community. But I do believe that everybody deserves to be successful. We can earn more than where we are at the moment, but I believe that it doesn't have to be hard to do that. So we should be trying to aim to do it with less stress. So let's unlock that through education, through listening, through learning, through hearing other people's experiences, and drawing on how we can relate that back to help that fit into our business and what we can take away from their experience to help make ours less stressful.
Victoria
Absolutely. So you mentioned about hacks. And let's say you can't choose Pocket PA. What would be your app or system or software hack?
Caro
I think I use a Notes app a lot on my phone, really. I probably wouldn't function without my phone because I use my phone for everything. So I will open notes very easily and I will also use Siri. So I voice notes, well, not voice notes. I just record my voice onto the note so it's all typed out. And that is my real go to. I can do it anywhere. So I listened to a podcast this morning while I was out running, and then I came back and as soon as I hadn't even taken my trainers off and I opened my note and I pressed on the voice thing so that I could dictate everything that I had just heard from my podcast that I was listening to, that I really wanted to have as my takeaways to use later in the day because I'm editing my book at the moment. So I wanted to put some of those pointers in my book and I thought, Oh, my goodness, if I don't do it now, I'm going to forget. I love opening a note and then just dictating out my thoughts very quickly because I can't type fast enough to keep up with my brain.
Caro
So that's a really good way. It would annoy me to leave a voice note because I would have to listen to it back. I don't tend to voice note myself, which I know is some people's go-to. But I like to dictate down onto a note and that I find really, really handy, which I can refer back to. I have got a gazillion notes on my notes thing, so I often have to do a search when I'm going through because I'm very handy with a note. But yeah, that's been a really... And it's such a simple thing, that doesn't cost anything. You don't have to download that app, but that's already on your iPhone or anywhere. So I have moved on to doing that on my phone because I did use to always do it in a written format, but yeah, so much quicker now that I can press Siri and voice record what my note is.
Victoria
Good. Yeah, I'm glad that you found something that works for you, because a lot of people do the voice notes to other people to try and convey the message, because typing isn't their forte. It feels like it takes too long. You spend a lot of time checking the spelling, make sure everything's OK. But I think people forget about the audio to text function and how efficient that can be as well. So my last question for you, and you did mention it just then, what's the book? Tell us more.
Caro
Oh, so, well, it's a book for self-employed people. If you're considering getting into self employment or you're at the beginning of that journey, I think it's a big transition for a lot of people. It never occurred to me that I wouldn't be anything but self employed. I don't feel I'm very employable. But I know for a lot of people, they deliberate or they have a hobby and they're thinking about becoming a business owner. So I really wanted to write a warts and all book about what is involved being self employed to see if it's suitable for you, really, to interview yourself, because we go for job interviews when we're applying for a role to be employed. But being self-employed, who's interviewing you? So I thought, well, let's make this book. We've got seven big chapters that we cover, all asking different questions and giving you a reality check on what it's actually like, and giving you a perspective of what you might need to consider before stepping into this space of working for yourself and being your own boss, because I would rather somebody found it out from a 10 or a 15-pound book than they jacked their job in, thought it was going to be living the dream, and suddenly they got a reality check and it wasn't what they thought.
Caro
So really, it's a how to, it's a guide, it's a sense checker interview process of yourself, really giving you a warts and all of what self employment is like so that at the end of it, you've hopefully learned a lot of things and you can sit back and you just have to have that conversation with yourself and think, gosh, would this be for me? There's a lot in there. I can see all the highs, but I can also see some lows. I'm not over sugarcoating it because I think that we're not helping anybody. But could you be the boss of your own business? That's a big question for people. And are you going to back yourself? Because we talk a lot about backing yourself. Have you got that trust and belief in yourself? And we have to dig deep, we have to have that resilience. And there are certain characteristics and traits that self-employed people have. Neurodiversity is one of them. A lot of self-employed business owners are neurodiverse. So if you are neurodiverse, do not discount or think because you weren't book smart that self-employment won't be for you. It actually is one of the things I pinpoint in the book to say, actually, you may make you very well qualified because you're very resilient.
Caro
You've had to come across a lot of challenges and think laterally to be able to navigate yourself out of circumstances where neurotypical people just take it as a given. They don't question things, whereas as a neurodiverse person, you're always adapting and resetting your compass. So I think there's a lot of stuff in the book to help you decide, is self-employment for me or not? And at the end of it, I really hope that you've got a clearer vision. I'm not trying to push any square pegs into round holes because I believe that we all have space to co-exist. But if you are thinking about it seriously, then this is the book that will help you. It's not all about the practicalities of the nuts and bolts and how you set up a company and all those things. It's a lot more lateral thinking around all the unspoken bits that you will come across on your journey of being self-employed to give you that flavour of, gosh, what's it really like? Could it be for me? And if it's not, as I say, I would much rather you found that out by reading a book than you got too far into it and then thought, oh, my God, that was an awful experience. I wish I'd known more about that.
Victoria
Yeah, I don't think there's enough of that in the world either, is there? So when is the book coming out? Do you have an estimate of that?
Caro
It's not until December. So literally August, September, October, November, December. Yeah, four more months. So I'm literally in that phase, we're designing the cover. And again, too many options and choices, too many colour swatches, and fonts that I have choose. I'm better off just having either or. But when you have anything that you can have, it's just an overwhelm of options, and that's almost too much. But yeah, I'm really excited. It's going to be coming out in December, and I've got a waitlist going on, which I can probably share you a link with if people like to go on the waitlist and get all excited with us.
Victoria
Yes, I will pop it on the show notes. Thank you. So, Carol, thank you so, so much for joining me on today's podcast. It's been lovely talking to you. I feel like I could talk to you all day. So thank you so, so much for your time.
Caro
Pleasure. Thank you, Victoria.