Victoria

Chrissy, welcome to the show.

Chrissy

Hi, thanks for having me.

Victoria

Oh, thank you for joining me. I'm super excited about our chat and I have so many questions to ask you today, but we're going to start with your early life and career path. Could you just share a little bit about your personal experiences with neurodiversity and what you experienced growing up?

Chrissy

Where do I start? Well, I grew up in inner, urban London, in Fulham and I'm an only child, so I grew up in a very adult world and I was a bit of a loner, very shy, a bit of a cry baby, very oversensitive. Note the words I'm using. But I also grew up... I grew up with a Down Syndrome uncle who I was really close to. He lived literally a couple of roads down with my gran. And that really made me aware of differences, different people. I also went to an inner city school which had all the different types of people. I think that was a really good thing, and I'm quite observant, so I was quite aware of how different people can be from quite a young age. And that made me sensitive to knowing how to communicate with different types of people in an adult world, but as well as a world with kids.

Victoria

Okay, so you experienced all of this diversity at a really young age. And, even you picked out some of the words that come into mind when you're talking about that early childhood experience. And I know when we had our pre-recording chat, you used words about your upbringing and references about being, and I'm using air quotes, listeners, "lazy", "a daydreamer", "unprofessional". So, when did you realise that not all of those things that people were saying were true? Or when did you start challenging some of those thoughts and assumptions?

Chrissy

Much later than you would expect, yeah. I was probably in my early to mid-30s by the time that I figured out that those things perhaps weren't true. The catalyst was me being in a very client facing job in a high stimulus type of environment in fashion for a luxury brand. It was a hard role for me, but it was the kind of role I'd been doing my whole life, which I'd fell into as you do. It was a HR exec that had one day gently pulled me aside, who had been very kindly observing me. She used the excuse of being quite new and quite new to the company and wondered if I could be a sort of experiment for her. She had some techniques and theories that she wanted to test out and she deemed I was the right employee. I thought, Yeah, sure, why not? She just started the conversation by asking how I'd gotten into the job and how I was finding the job and the dynamics and what I enjoyed about the job. It was just a really difficult conversation for me because I obviously didn't know how to answer these questions without sounding like I was really just not loving it.

Chrissy

I didn't want to give that impression. I think she saw me struggle and she just said, Right, I've got a test here that I'd love you to do. It's quite in-depth. It's a bunch of questions and you just have to answer them really, honestly very quickly. Don't think about it. Be as honest as you can. I didn't know what Myers-Briggs was at the time. I was completely ignorant and unaware of my own self. And so off I went and she goes, you have to take it home. Don't overthink it, answer it all, give it back to me, and then I'll let you know how it goes. So I did. I took it home, answered it as honestly as I could. I found that really quite challenging as well, without having to overthink the questions. Then I gave her the answers a day or two later, and she called me up and asked me, did you do what I said? Did you honestly answer these as candidly as you could? I'm like, Yeah. Why? And instantly started to worry. Had I done the wrong answers? Had I done something wrong? And she says, No, as long as you were honest.

Chrissy

So she invited me back into her office to discuss the results and that was it. That was the horrifying, shocking, but aha moment in that I felt seen for the first time, but I was horrified, not in a great way. It was like having a shocking diagnosis after being gaslit for years by doctors. It's shocking, but also quite a relief that somehow everything made sense finally. And so it revealed that I was just massively introverted, something that I had never really understood or had resonated with me because I'd, again, fallen into very extroverted, A-type roles, and I had learned to become good at them because I'd practised and practised and been forced to do it because I needed to earn a living. I had never once assumed that that wasn't what I was meant to do. But I had grown ever so miserable on the inside, not knowing why. I just thought, That's just me. I'm ungrateful. I'm lazy. I'm all these things. And it was eye opening until she explained what that test is all about and how it's not about being shy or being extroverted or..about being A type, it's about energy and that everything I've been doing day in, day out had been depleting all my energy and I wasn't recharging properly.

Chrissy

And it blew my mind. And I think that in itself, was the catalyst for realising that the truths that I'd learned as a kid could potentially not be truths. They were just other people's perceptions of me, and also the perception I'd had of myself. But then also, I guess I was doing everything, going against my own natural grain enough that the second catalyst was falling ill, and that came a bit shortly after that, actually. And then that really... I think once you have, i.e. a breakdown or a health condition or a diagnosis of some sort forces you to think differently and change your ways, you can't carry on. Once you know that knowledge, you can't unlearn it, you can't unknow it, unhear it. And so you know you have to break the chain, and it started from there.

Victoria

Cool. You touched on it then about your health challenges and how they became the ultimate catalyst for starting your business and focusing on your wellness. What did you start doing differently?

Chrissy

What? Once I'd had diagnosis?

Victoria

Yeah.

Chrissy

I guess I started to... during recovery. I had a massive operation and it was during recovery when you can do very little that you start to ponder your own mortality, but also like, how am I going to spend the rest of my time? Time is like... Because obviously when you're ill, everything that you previously thought was valuable to you, i.e. possessions, money, status, relationship status, all those things, they drop away. Actually, all you have is yourself and time. You have all the time in the world when you're recovering. You can't do much. And so that's what made me rethink, okay, how do I want to actually spend the rest of my time? That time could be a long time. It could be short. I didn't know at that point. It made me think, do I want to keep doing A, this job, and B, thinking and doing the way I've been doing it, expecting a different outcome?

Victoria

Mmmm.

Chrissy

And that caused the change. I decided to educate myself and try and unlearn all the stuff I'd learned growing up, which I knew was wrong or... I can't think of the word, but I educated myself. I listened to podcasts, I read books, mainly about self-development, not perhaps self-help. I didn't think I was depressed. I didn't know myself well enough. I had to learn myself. I couldn't rely on an HR exec to tell me what to do. I'd been listening to other people, i.e., parents, i.e. peers, friends, and copying what they were doing because I didn't know what I wanted, because I didn't know myself. It took a lot of swallowing my pride and looking at my ego and all those things. I just wanted to learn more about myself. I knew I couldn't do that if I kept doing the nine to five grind like I was.

Victoria

Yeah. It sounds like it gave you this opportunity for reflection and to recognise feelings and needs and desires and actually maybe name them in order to figure out what you wanted to move away from and what you wanted to move towards in life. So you've had this HR exec who you did the Myers Briggs with, you realise you're an introvert, you have these health challenges that have made you realise or reevaluate what you want from life. What action did you then take?

Chrissy

I remember thinking, well, I don't have three to six months savings, so I can't just quit my job, which is I knew at that point I couldn't do that job going forward forever and ever, but I knew I couldn't just quit. So I had a chat with my boss and bosses and team about potentially condensing my hours or ideally working from home. And this was pre-pandemic, so working from home wasn't the norm and wasn't entirely accepted. And my boss instantly said... I mean, they were very supportive because I was ill and they were great in that sense, but as to how I would perform my role was actually quite fixed in their head. I had to present my own case for that. I said, well, if my hours can't be condensed or... then I have no choice then to go part time. And he said, Your job can't be part time. It's a really big role. You do a lot. We need you here the whole time. I said, well, no, I will go part time and this will be a job share. I'll hire someone else to do my job alongside me. Again, that was unheard of, really, at the time.

Chrissy

But I had all the answers. I had researched and I had to make this work for me because no one else was going to fight my corner than me. He was a little bit stunned. I had all the answers, and so he couldn't really say no, that I wasn't doing anything wrong, per se. He let me take care of it and I prepared some candidates and interviewed and eventually found a job share and it worked out really well for a while. However, after about a couple of years, I still found myself picking up most of the work and it was quite hard to switch off and switching on and off. I also knew I couldn't survive on a part time salary, so I ended up... That's when my moonlighting, flirting with freelancing started. I knew I had to make up for the lack of income somehow, but from the comfort of my own home, where I spent a lot of time still recovering. And despite enjoying the social aspect of being at work, I knew that I had to carve a better way of working for me. And that's when I started doing VA work and also creative web design work.

Chrissy

And it all began from there, really.

Victoria

So then did you have to wait for, did you run the two jobs in tandem until you were able to earn enough money from one to transition out the other?

Chrissy

Yes, yes.

Victoria

Okay, fabulous. So you started off with the VA and the creative stuff, I know that you've actually now have two distinct... I can't get my words actually... Distinct strands to your business. So tell me and the listeners about that and how they both complement each other, but also complement your brain, your energy levels, and how you do your best work.

Chrissy

Totally. So the perks of still having that part-time job meant that I had great perks. And one of the perks was having onsite holistic therapies. They had a spare room in the basement and they had a gym and whatnot, and they used to lease out this spare room to holistic therapists. And during my recovery, I had discovered reflexology that they offered it there. I had never heard of it, but I was in such dire need of anything that would help with my crushing fatigue and migraines and just general malaise that I ended up falling in love with it from the get go. I couldn't explain why, even though the reflexologist was kind enough to explain what it is and how it works. I couldn't tell you still why it worked, but it just did. It gave me the relief that nothing else had. I tried acupuncture at the time. I tried all sorts of Reiki and healing and all sorts. But reflexology, there's something about it that gave me instant relief where I could, instead of crawling into the toilets and lying on my cardigan to get 10 minutes of shut eye so that I could go back to my desk and do more work.

Chrissy

Within 50 minutes of being horizontal and having my feet stimulated, it was like a magic reset button, and it just worked for me. And that was the beginning. Even though I was on a smaller income, I always made sure I had the money to have my sometimes weekly or biweekly treatments, rather than go out for a nice dinner or treat myself to a nice pair of jeans or whatever. That opened my mind to holistic therapies in general, and it piqued my interest then. But it was only when my partner, poor suffering partner, who grew tired of me banging on about how much I loved reflexology and also about how I, even though I was loving freelancing and doing both, as in having the part-time job, having the social aspect of a team, but then still being able to work from home, I still found myself behind a screen a lot. I was still sat at a desk behind a screen for many hours a day. It got to a point where I knew something was still lacking. I knew I had to jump ship at some point. I didn't want to continue with the corporate job anymore.

Chrissy

I felt like I was missing connection. There's only so much you can do via a screen. Even though I loved that creative outlet, I was loving being creative, but I needed something else, something deeper. And it was my partner who actually said, You love reflexology, you love receiving it, but have you never thought about giving it? And that was it. It was like a bell ringing in my head and I went, oh, my gosh, how had I never thought of that? But then the idea just instantly appealed to be able to... The reward to be able to give to others what I had got, which saved my sanity, was great. That instantly, I thought, well, I've got enough savings to either jack in the job or I invest it in retraining. And so I did. But I did it the Christmas before the pandemic hit.

Victoria

2019?

Chrissy

Yes.

Victoria

Oh, wow. Okay.

Chrissy

But the timing probably wasn't the best. Obviously, no one knew. I didn't know. That's when I quit my... I started training that summer 2019, and six months in, in December, I very, very quickly doing a three day a week corporate job, a two day week freelancing, and also a part time requalification in holistic therapies and reflexology. I was reaching burnout. I couldn't juggle all of that.

Victoria

There's a lot of mental flexibility needed with those three.

Chrissy

I was wearing a lot of hats and juggling and I was starting to drop stuff and it was starting to show and I knew something had to give. That's when I thought, well, this is a lot of money. I'm investing in retraining. I can't afford to fail the exams. There was a lot of learning, a lot of mental capacity I needed to make space for. I knew then that that was the time to quit the part-time job. My partner had also had become self-employed at that point. But then come February, that's when the pandemic reared its ugly head and it felt like the worst timing to be touching people. But luckily, I had done all the practical stuff in the first six months. The last six months were, thankfully, all theory, which we could do online. The practical exams were weirdly done online with an invigilator. It all worked out. I managed to get all my 100 case studies in between lockdowns when it was safe to do so. That was it, and that was the beginning of the end. I fully embraced, opened up my own clinic and started doing reflexology from home whilst still doing the web design on the side.

Chrissy

I knew A, I loved having that balance. I had my nerdy creative outlet where I could be on my own in my office doing all the visual, creative stuff, but I could also do off-screen, skin-to-skin, person-to-person stuff, and create that connection that I was so lacking before. The balance of the two meant that I was being fulfilled in different areas of my brain.

Victoria

Yeah.

Chrissy

Eventually, I realised I could use my web design to help holistic therapists. And when the pandemic came, I very quickly realised, Oh, my gosh, I can get all these people to pivot and then create courses and do videos online and all sorts. I was wise to keep the web design going because that kept me afloat financially during the pandemic when I couldn't treat anyone.

Victoria

Yeah, and you were able to create a business model as well that blended both worlds together as well. That's mad. What was really interesting while you were talking about that, your energy spiked, dipped and then spiked again. So you started talking about the whole holistic thing, how much it benefited you while you were still in that part time role and how much energy it helped give you. Then your energy dipped when we were talking about mental flexibility and juggling the three different things and the strain that that was putting on you. And then here your energy's gone straight back up again, talking about how shit COVID was basically, but actually how it could have been so much worse. And through circumstances, you were actually still able to pass and still get your 100 case studies and then blend the two worlds together. So I really I really admire that you've managed to identify the areas that bring you joy and then create a life to support that and continue to support that, while also having impact on other people, those that you work with and support as well. I think it's fabulous. I think it's really fabulous.

Victoria

So thinking about how how your brain works, how does how does your business support that?

Chrissy

So with the web design, I get a lot of time to prepare, so I'm never on the spot. I can spend hours and hours researching, scribbling, doing all the nerdy stuff in the background, and that gives my brain a lot of space and room. Whereas with the reflexology, you are face to face, and so you have to engage. It's using a different part of your brain, obviously. Especially with first time clients, there's a lot of dialogue, there's a lot of questions. It's a vulnerable place. You're holding space for that person. And you learn to, and again, it's part of training as well, but also as a person, you learn to protect your energy and not to absorb all of that. And that is something that I hadn't realised I'd done priorly, was again being an empath and being an introvert, is that I absorb other people's energy quite easily. And as a therapist, I realised I had to really learn to protect myself from that, and that was really good practice. And when I'm doing my web design, I can recoup all of that energy, perhaps, that gets spent. With reflexology, it's such a lovely human connection that you create in such a short space of time and very rewarding.

Chrissy

Even though sometimes not many words need to be said, and of course, just the power of touch, some treatments can be silent, but yet so much can be felt, and you can help someone so much just by being silent and letting them speak letting them be heard. So it's different rewards in different ways. And just being able to work my own hours is key. It created a freedom to make sure I only work when I have the mental energy too. Time still is my most precious asset. It's finite, so you have to use it wisely. Yes, money is important, but to me it meant more, what can I do with my time? Where can I rest? And that comes first and then work comes second. Because I can't help anyone if I don't help myself.

Victoria

Yes, absolutely. I remember when I started business, I can't remember who said it or exactly what the saying was, but it was something like, you won't have a business if you don't look after yourself. And it is so true. I'm guilty of, I have this in air quotes like work hard ethic. So I have this faulty programming that tells me if I'm awake, I should be working. But what that means is that if I wake up at three o'clock in the morning, my brain goes, well, you're up now, so you should be sitting at the desk. Sometimes I do that because I just think, well, I've got stuff to do. I'm just going to crack on. I am a morning person. So that works really well with my energy levels. And I like having early nights. But equally, sometimes that is almost like a double edged sword, because it kicks in to the point where it no longer makes sense. If I wake up at one o'clock in the morning, do I want to be going straight to the desk? No, I don't. And it's almost like you have these beliefs that you have to constantly challenge in business, in order to put your wellness and you first, in order to be your best self for your clients. So I wouldn't be able to do something like a one o'clock start if I had a day of coaching calls. It would be completely irresponsible of me. And it's almost like I have to rationalise it in my head for me to be able to go, no, that's not what you need to do today. That does not make sense. It's interesting. I've learned, and I think you might be the same, learned so much about myself through running a business.

Chrissy

Totally, totally.

Victoria

It's like the self help and therapy I never knew I needed.

Chrissy

Exactly. And in a way, and no disrespect to obviously anyone who works in the proper jobs, what they call, but it sure made me a lazy person in the respect that it takes the pressure off. You can go in and do a job and you've got your holiday pay and your sick pay and everything's free and it leaves you off the hook. It doesn't... It doesn't force you into thinking very hard about yourself. It's just about the job in hand and the tasks and you do the tasks and you go home. And of course, yes, many are very rewarding, but I think to a lot of people they aren't. And it's because they don't impact you or anyone you know. It's very hard to see the fruits of your labour when you work in the big, nine to five corporate world. I think definitely everyone would benefit from moonlighting as a freelance and run it and trying to run your own business, because the buck falls with you and everything becomes about you and about the people you serve.

Victoria

Yeah, it's funny because I have friends who are like, "Oh, she posts so much on social media." I have to! You have a completely different mentality. It's not about, I need to go to bed every night thinking, have I done everything within my power to move the needle on this business today? Because if I haven't, then I'm doing a disservice to my family. So if that means sending the follow up email to the proposal that's about to expire, even though I feel really awkward, I'm going to do it because nobody else is going to do that type of stuff for me.

Chrissy

It's a mindset for sure.

Victoria

Yeah, it really is. I'm moving on now to think about neurodiversity and neuroinclusion and the work that you do. So in our pre-call chat that we had, we spoke about undiagnosed ADHD going on in your world. Pardon?

Chrissy

Potentially, yeah. Potentially. No diagnosis yet.

Victoria

No, and no diagnosis is completely valid as well, because we're talking about how your brain works and you're the expert on you. So is there anything that you find particularly challenging or that you don't think is highlighted enough about neurodivergence, neurodiversity?

Chrissy

I think the one thing that stood out for me, I don't know why, but it doesn't instantly make you... doesn't help your likability factor.

Victoria

What do you mean?

Chrissy

As in it doesn't make you the most popular person in your peer group or in your work situation. I think if you're neurodiverse, I don't think you're going to necessarily be the life and soul of the room or not everyone's going to love you. Or at least that was my own experience, maybe I'll put it that way. I think you can often be misjudged and misunderstood, and that can feel quite isolating. And so it makes it harder for you to form relationships and friendships, and words can often not be your forte, and so you get misconstrued, misunderstood. And so that likability factor gets stripped away. I think that's probably what struck me now, in hindsight, having looked back at my young me, my old me, and now I can read the signs in that. That's probably the reason why I didn't have that many friends, or that's probably the reason why I was crap at relationships or etc. So, yeah, sorry, I hope that was the answer to the proper question.

Victoria

Absolutely. And I have conversations with clients because I work with a lot of introverted people as well. And that's not to say they're shy and it's not to say that they're lacking in confidence. They're actually really, really good at their job. But what they find tricky, and I find this tricky to a degree as well, is being put on the spot for an answer. And I'm well aware that you and I are on a podcast and I'm doing this to you right now.

Chrissy

Exactly!

Victoria

In the interest of neuroinclusivity, we've had pre recording chats. We've spoken about the questions. I've shared the questions with you in advance. And the reason I do that is because I would need that if that was me. I think it's about recognising what you need from other people and almost giving yourself permission to go, I haven't got an answer for that right now, but let me go away and think about it or go away and reflect and I'll come back to you over email. And feeling confident saying things like that. And I think the only way we can gain more confidence saying that ourselves is by seeing other people model that type of behaviour and responses as well. So I would love to know next, what strategies or approaches do you use to make life easier for you to stay focused and productive? Because it sounds like you've got loads going on in your life, Chrissy. You've got like two different businesses, partner, living in the countryside. Life sounds really full for you.

Chrissy

It is, yeah, I guess. It's funny how you don't often see it the way others see it. The question was, what strategies?

Victoria

Yeah, what strategies and approaches do you use to just make life easier to help you stay focused and productive?

Chrissy

Well, I'm obviously a big believer in holistic therapy and wellbeing in general. If I've got a calmer nervous system, I'm going to be better at whatever it is that I'm trying to do. That comes first, and then in terms of being productive and focusing, I think learning more and more about self-development and learning about what lights me up, what drains me, then allows me to know what I should be focusing on and how to prioritise things. But overwhelm is something I experience a lot because I absorb everything. I want to do it all. So trying to focus on the one thing, I just try and think about the one thing that will make the biggest difference either to me or to my clients. I have to be calm for that. That means either prioritising self-care or minimising or choosing the right environment to be in.

Victoria

What do you do for self-care and what do you need from your environment?

Chrissy

I need alone time, for sure, a lot. So my poor partner gets told to go places or...

Victoria

Do you know what? I have this with Adam as well, because it was probably about six months ago and I said, I'm going to go upstairs and just read my book. And he was like, I'll come with you. And I was like, Oh, no. Just don't. He was like, I'll just see you and we can read together.

Chrissy

Yeah, he's learnt to stop doing that now. I need my space. He knows that. I have my own treatment room office, and my office is my treatment room as well, and it's become my space, which is key. And it's got to be the right room, the right environment, even just from lighting to textures to decor, all of those things. But yeah, self care being obviously therapy and counselling as well as holistic therapies, even just listening to podcasts. And yeah, I think that's... And obviously finding your tribe, surrounding yourself with the right people. I think that's really key and harder to do when you move. So moving from London to the countryside was big for me. I wasn't quite ready for it. The pandemic made that happen. But it has, though, relieved the financial pressure. And I think that is another thing that should be taken into consideration not only when you're neurodivergent, but just in general, being self-employed, if you can reduce the financial demands of your lifestyle, then that's less pressure on you to wake up at 1:00 AM and think you have to work, right?

Victoria

Yeah, absolutely. I think it just gives you so much more breathing room for a better phrase in terms of creativity as well. When you're feeling the pressure of creating financial stability, it can be all consuming, can't it? So even just having some regular transactions coming in, or a recurring client, a retainer or whatever it is, can just take the edge off and free up that creative space to do other stuff. Yeah, I absolutely agree.

Chrissy

But even just... So rather than thinking of how do I add, people often find it harder to think of what can I remove? What are the things that I am paying for unconsciously that I no longer need, that no longer serves me, but are just comfort blankets. The takeouts, like the Netflixes or the shoes, I don't know, just stuff that we end up paying for and actually just minimising, living a simpler life.

Victoria

Yeah.

Chrissy

It's really like, just simplifying things can actually take a bit of the weight off and makes room for other things. So yeah.

Victoria

Yeah, I love that. I really do. Okay, so last question. If you had one piece of advice to give the listeners who feel like they're struggling to keep up with what work or business should look like, but they're afraid to slow down and prioritise their wellbeing, what would it be?

Chrissy

That's a hard one. One, because I've got loads of nuggets of advice. But the one that stands out for me is, I think, really learning about your energetic blueprint, i.e. really understanding what A, lights you up, and B, what drains you. Because I think without that, you're always just going to be doing things because you feel like you should or because that's what other people are doing, and not realising why you're grumpy or resentful or those things or why you're not feeling fulfilled. I hope that makes sense. But that's what I wish someone had told me way, way, way back was, how do you work? How does your brain work? Where is your zone of genius? What is it that you do that makes you unaware of time going by? And then what about the times where you know, this doesn't feel right. This actually feels painful. It makes my brain hurt, that expression. So, yeah, I think identifying those early on, if you can just learn about yourself rather than looking at what other people are doing, that will make things a lot easier.

Victoria

Yeah, I agree. It's that you can't pour from an empty cup phrase, isn't it? If you know how you can top up your wellness cup, then again, it comes back to what you said earlier about you show up better for your clients, for your relationships, in every other aspect of your life as well.

Chrissy

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Victoria

Well, Chrissy, thank you so, so much for coming on the show. It's been lovely hearing about your story and getting to know you.

Chrissy

You're welcome. Thank you. Thanks so much, Victoria.